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Author Topic: DO SPECIES CHANGE?  (Read 1827 times)

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Offline mark

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DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« on: May 03, 2009, 08:19:37 AM »
Do Species Change?                                                           by Paul Garner                          December 8, 2008                                  Layman                                          Keywords                                                                                                                                                                                                   It seems obvious to everyone today that species change. In fact, the variety within each created kind is sometimes mind-boggling. But changing species wasn’t so obvious 150 years ago. In fact, the prevailing view was called “fixity of species”—the belief that each species was created in the same form we find today. Where did this belief come from?
Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species.1 According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. In his famous book, On the Origin of Species, first published in 1859, Darwin set out to demolish this widespread view.
Darwin showed how the fixity of species ran counter to all the evidence he had been collecting for twenty years. His book managed to convince most scientists that species were not fixed or unchangeable. In the process, the church was proved wrong, with tragic consequences.
But what did Darwin really find? What does the Bible actually say?       The Bible Was Not the Problem       To his credit, Darwin corrected a popular misunderstanding. Species do change. Since Darwin’s day, many observations have confirmed this. In fact, new species have even been shown to arise within a single human lifetime. For example, one study gave evidence that sockeye salmon introduced into Lake Washington, USA, between 1937 and 1945 had split into two reproductively isolated populations (i.e., two separate species) in fewer than 13 generations (a maximum of 56 years).2            “All the most eminent palaeontologists . . . and all our greatest geologists . . . have unanimously, often vehemently, maintained the immutability of species. . . . I feel how rash it is to differ from these great authorities, to whom, with others, we owe all our knowledge.”
 —On the Origin of Species, pp. 310–11        Was the Bible really wrong about species fixity? Contrary to the accepted wisdom of Darwin’s day, the Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging (in fact, it does not even use the word species). Rather, the book of Genesis refers to “kinds” (Genesis 1:11, 12, 21, etc.) and suggests that living things have had a very dynamic history. For example, as a consequence of the Fall, some animals became predators, and disease entered into the world. And after the Flood destroyed life on earth, God commanded the creatures on the Ark to “breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth” (Genesis 8:17, KJV).
The problem was that by the 1700s, church leaders had embraced a view of “species” based on ancient Greek philosophy, and they were teaching this “tradition of men” as biblical truth (Colossians 2:8).
The church’s compromise on Scripture’s authority had dire results. While Darwin was right to argue that species change, he went too far. He should have gone back to Scripture to see what it really said. Instead, he ignored the biblical data and assumed that all creatures descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years.       The Source of the Problem—Aristotle’s Unchanging “Essences”       One of the most important influences on the development of the “species” concept came from Greek philosophy.3 In the fourth century before Christ, Aristotle had taught that every entity was characterized by an eternal and unchanging set of features or form—its immutable “essence.” Such “essentialist” thinking was hugely influential and was eventually applied in biology, leading to belief in the immutability of species.
Of course, Aristotle did not believe in biblical creation, but many Christians who later adopted his ideas did. Thus, by the seventeenth century, the concept of the immutability of species had become linked to belief in their separate creation. The Swedish botanist Carolus Linnaeus, famous for laying the foundations of our modern biological classification system, expressed his essentialist thinking like this: “We count as many species as there were created forms in the beginning.”4
In this way, a Greek philosophical concept became Christianized. Although it was given a biblical facade, this belief was really rooted in Aristotelianism.       Species Fixity Doubted Even before Darwin        Carolus Linnaeus     
The Greek philosophical concept of fixity was Christianized by Carolus Linnaeus and others who adopted Aristotelian ideas that everything is unchanging. Linnaeus later changed his mind after learning about a new plant that appeared to have been bred from two other species.
        While Linnaeus’s name is closely linked with belief in species fixity, he changed his mind later in life. He was intrigued by an unusual plant specimen that was brought to his attention. Its combination of characteristics from other species led him to conclude that it was a hybrid, a cross between two existing species. Here was an evident challenge to the popular notion that species were fixed and unalterable. For Linnaeus, the implications were astonishing, and he eventually accepted that new forms had arisen by intermingling of the species that God had created.
Another significant figure who questioned species fixity before Darwin was William Herbert, an English botanist and clergyman who became Dean of Manchester in 1840. Although he believed in an old earth, he did accept the idea of a global flood. In Herbert’s view, modern species had arisen within the created kinds in response to the environmental changes that took place in the aftermath of the Deluge.5
The peculiar notion of species fixity was headed for the trash bin, with or without Darwin’s book.       Continuing Debate About the Mechanism of Speciation       After 1859, people responded in different ways concerning Darwin’s ideas about the variability of species.6 Most biologists quickly accepted evolutionary ideas, although debate about the mechanism of evolution continued to be heated. In fact, Darwin’s views about natural selection were almost discarded, for a time, because the evidence was ambiguous and inheritance was poorly understood (see “Creation’s Hidden Potential,” p. 70). Meanwhile, a group of anti-evolutionists bitterly opposed Darwin and all that he stood for, often championing species fixity with poorly informed arguments.
Another group, usually overlooked today, accepted species variability but argued for a more limited kind of change than that proposed by Darwin. Among these was the German entomologist and Jesuit Erich Wasmann, who did not accept the common ancestry of mammals, birds, and reptiles.7 Another was the Englishman Harold C. Morton, who advocated a theory of “parvolution,” or evolution within limits (from the Latin parva, meaning “small”).8
In the USA, early young-age creationists were independently developing similar ideas. For example, in the early 1940s, biologist Frank L. Marsh argued that new species were produced within the original created kinds that God had made. Marsh coined the term baramin from two Hebrew words used in Genesis 1 meaning “created kind,” and his ideas led to the founding of the modern scientific discipline of baraminology (see “Building a Community for Discovery,” p. 76).9
This brief survey makes it clear that creationists have had a variety of views on the nature of species since at least the time of Linnaeus. Sadly, Darwin overreacted to the mistaken essentialist view that dominated nineteenth-century Victorian England, dumping Christianity and the Bible along with it. The result was the triumph of evolutionary thinking in the twentieth century.
Modern creationists need to challenge both the unbiblical essentialist ideas that underlie species fixity and the naturalistic ideas that underpin evolution from a common ancestor. The truth lies somewhere between these two extremes: yes, species change, but variation has clear limits (see “The Discontinuity of Life,” p. 88). In the twenty-first century, we face the exciting challenge of re-thinking the history of life from a truly biblical perspective.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline fish

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2009, 09:41:53 AM »
 aging makes every living thing change. an acorn to a mighty oak,etc.. but I don't believe a species changes from one living being into a different creature altogether

Offline CriTTer

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2009, 10:28:54 AM »
i was just watching the National Geographic Channel and had to shut it off.  The story was about "when whales had legs"  Not one point was based on facts and the word that was used more then any was "probably"   or phrases like "we think" that is how it happened. and it was all based on a small fossil found on land that had a small bone in the ear cannel that is the same as a whales.   whales started out with 4 legs and a tail and were pretty much like wolves in size and appearance.....what a joke   ^^^%%%

Offline mark

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2009, 12:11:46 PM »
I couldn't agree more. One "kind" of animal does not change into another. God created the different kinds with the ability to adapt and change within their own kinds. We did not "evolve from pond scum. This is exactly what the fossil record shows.


No Chance of Life by Chance
Written by: Bruce Malone

In the 1700's many scientists believed that life spontaneously generated from non-living matter (such as raw meat or sewage). In the 1800's, using careful experimentation, Louis Pasteur proved this concept wrong and verified that life only comes from previously existing life. Ironically, many scientists have once again returned to the belief that life came from non-life...in spite of the fact that there is no experimental evidence to show how that could have happened. The reason this unsupported belief has returned is that science has been defined as to eliminate the consideration of the only other alternative-the creation of life by an intelligent designer.

Even the simplest living cell is an incredibly complex machine. It must be capable of detecting malfunctions, repairing itself, and making copies of itself. Man has never succeeded in building a machine capable of these same functions. Yet most scientists accept the belief that life arose from non-life (in spite of the evidence clearly indicating that it did not and could not happen). This incredible belief is as absurd as finding a complex chemical manufacturing facility on Mars and assuming that it built itself.

One classic experiment which is used to support the belief that life "built itself" is an experiment by Stanley Miller in 1953. In this experiment sparks were discharged into an apparatus which was circulating common gases. These gases reacted to form various organic products which were collected and analyzed. The experiment succeeded in producing only a few of the 20 amino acids required by itself. Furthermore, the dozens of major problems with this experiment as an explanation for the formation of life are seldom reported.

For instance, our early atmosphere was assumed to have no oxygen because this would stop amino acid formation. However, with no oxygen, there would be no ozone shield. With no ozone shield, life would also be impossible. Furthermore, oxidized rocks throughout the geologic record indicate that oxygen has always been present.

In addition to this, the same gases which can react to form amino acids undergo known reactions in the presence of sunlight which remove them from the atmosphere. The required gases would not have been around long enough for life to have developed! In addition, a cold trap was used to keep the reaction products from being destroyed as fast as they formed.

The biggest problem is that the amino acids formed in this experiment are always a 50/50 mixture of stereotypes (L and D forms). Stereotypes are like a drawer full of right-hand and left-hand gloves, identical in every way except a mirror image of each other. Life contains only L stereotypes of these randomly produced amino acids. Yet equal proportions of both types are always produced. How could the first cell have selected only L stereotypes from a random, equally reactive mixture? No answer to this has ever been found.

These are just a few of the problems with the fanciful idea that life generated itself. The linking of these randomly produced amino acids into the required proteins is an even more overwhelming impossibility. No experiment has ever shown that matter has the ability to come alive. The best explanation for life is still that "life only comes from pre-existing life". As you search for truth, perhaps you should consider the possibility that the source of all life... is GOD.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline mark

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2009, 01:41:02 PM »
i was just watching the National Geographic Channel and had to shut it off.  The story was about "when whales had legs"  Not one point was based on facts and the word that was used more then any was "probably"   or phrases like "we think" that is how it happened. and it was all based on a small fossil found on land that had a small bone in the ear cannel that is the same as a whales.   whales started out with 4 legs and a tail and were pretty much like wolves in size and appearance.....what a joke   ^^^%%%
The truth, is animals have changed little within their own kinds. Something I have found very interesting is most animals seem to have been much larger in the past and probably lived much longer. Humans also lived much longer lives and very well could have been much larger (Earthly God myths could easily have been formed when looking upon a 14 foot tall human) Assuming Humans were larger....... How many human bones are not being properly catalogued by evolutionary scientists?  The Biblical account of creation should always be considered by anyone digging in the flea flickin ground. How many dinosaurs have been found with human bones mis-identified laying next to them?
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline oldcowpoke

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2009, 02:57:46 PM »
The truth, is animals have changed little within their own kinds. Something I have found very interesting is most animals seem to have been much larger in the past and probably lived much longer. Humans also lived much longer lives and very well could have been much larger (Earthly God myths could easily have been formed when looking upon a 14 foot tall human) Assuming Humans were larger....... How many human bones are not being properly catalogued by evolutionary scientists?  The Biblical account of creation should always be considered by anyone digging in the flea flickin ground. How many dinosaurs have been found with human bones mis-identified laying next to them?

How come you guys get to "assume" when nobody else does? Real investigators follow the evidence -- they do not screw the evidence around to fit their theories. Experts in the field of paleontology are just as astute as experts in any other field, they can recognize which bones are which. And when there is doubt, they can check DNA.


Offline fish

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2009, 03:19:10 PM »
a whale with legs,, That would certainly be a sight!

Offline mark

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2009, 03:45:36 PM »
How come you guys get to "assume" when nobody else does? Real investigators follow the evidence -- they do not screw the evidence around to fit their theories. Experts in the field of paleontology are just as astute as experts in any other field, they can recognize which bones are which. And when there is doubt, they can check DNA.



Evolution Is Based On Modern Myths
Written by: Dave Nutting

There is a preponderance of scientific evidence to support creation as the correct explanation for our existence. The misconception that evolution is science while creation is religion is propagated by a variety of "myths" surrounding the evidence for evolution.

Myth:

Our universe is the result of explosive expansion of the "Cosmic Egg" billions of years ago.

Reality:

This just ignores the bigger question-who laid the "cosmic egg"? The first law of thermodynamics proves that matter and energy cannot just appear. Evolutionists must ignore the most basic law of science at the very start of their belief system. Furthermore, explosions do not result in increased organization of matter. Has an explosion ever created ordered complexity?

Myth:

The fossil record proves evolution.

Reality:

There are no transitions between vastly different types of animals in either the living world or the fossil record. Lining up three objects by size or shape does not prove that one turned into the other.

Myth:

Structural and biochemical similarities prove common ancestry.

Reality:

The lack of fossil transition strongly refute this myth. Common ancestry is only one of two possible explanations for similarities. Purposeful design can explain the same features in a more direct way. In addition, totally different organisms often display similar features. This supports the existence of a common designer.

Myth:

The rock layers of the earth form the pages of earth's history showing million of years of evolutionary progression.

Reality:

The fossil record does not show a clear "simple-to-complex" progression of life forms. Life is complex and well developed wherever it is found in the fossil record. Major groups of plants and animals appear suddenly in the fossil record, with nothing leading up to them. Most rock layers and the fossils they contain can be explained better by a worldwide flood and subsequent events.

Myth:

Radiometric dating methods are "absolute." They are accurate and reliable.

Reality:

Although radiometric dating methods seem to show a trend of great age, these methods depend upon numerous other assumptions. When used to date events of known age, such as lava flow in Hawaii or the Grand Canyon, they have been wrong by orders of magnitude. How can we be sure they are accurate for events of unknown age? Furthermore, the vast majority of dating method indicate a very young earth.

Myth:

The human body contains many "vestigial organs" , leftovers from our evolutionary development.

Reality:

Although at one time there were dozens of features of the human body listed as vestigial, most have been shown to have important functions. After all, even if a few parts have lost their original function that does not prove evolution. To demonstrate evolution, you need to show the development of completely new structures, not the loss and degeneration of previous characteristics.

Myth:

The fossil record for human evolution is complete and clear.

Reality:

All too often the propagandists for evolution present their story with statements such as, "Every knowing person believes that man descended from apes. Today there is no such thing as the theory of evolution, it is the fact of evolution." (Ernst Mayr) The evidence for human evolution is fragmentary and reconstruction involves artistic license. Many competent scientists totally reject evolution. They acknowledge that it is not even a good scientific theory, much less a fact.

This is a condensation of an article by Dave Nutting of Alpha Omega Institute. Alpha Omega is a non-profit creation education organization in Colorado and can be reached at www.discovercreation.org. A complete set of articles examining science and reality from a Christian perspective can be found at www.SearchfortheTruth.org.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline mark

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2009, 04:02:13 PM »

Our Mysterious Past
Written by: Bruce Malone

Just beneath the lush vegetation and majestic scenery of our planet is a massive worldwide graveyard. Plants and animals are buried by the billions under countless tons of mud and sediment which have subsequently turned to rock. How did all of those organisms get there? The answer to that question is THE KEY to understanding our origin. Starting in the early 1800's geologists have chosen to interpret fossils and sediments based on a presupposition of slow accumulation, or more recently, multiple local catastrophes over billions of years (uniformitarianism). Thousands of geologists have been indoctrinated in this belief and have spent the last 150 years actively fitting the evidence into this interpretation of earth history. Yet there remain many facts unexplained by this interpretation. Most of these "mysteries" disappear if the reality of a recent worldwide flood is accepted. A jury looking for the truth starts with eyewitness accounts. In addition to the Bible, which clearly presents the worldwide flood as a factual event, every major culture in the world has a flood story. From the Aztecs to the Chinese...Aborigines to the ancient Greeks...all cultures have an ancient account of a universal flood. Many of these stories include details of a righteous man being saved on a floating vessel and attribute the event to judgment from God. If this really happened, people would have spread across the globe after the catastrophe. As centuries passed the account of the flood would have become distorted. This is exactly what we find.

More evidence comes from fossils. The very existence of fossils is evidence of rapid burial. Fossils do not form today unless animals are rapidly buried. Yet many fossil deposits contain billions of tightly packed and intricately preserved creatures indicating that they had been washed together and rapidly buried. The extent, frequency, and lack of decay found in many fossil beds testify to the worldwide extent of the catastrophe.

The nature of the rock record is also a testimony to a worldwide flood. At many locations around the world, often resting just above those rock layers containing very few indications of life, there is a conglogomeration of rocks and boulders. The Great Unconformity represents a supposed 500 million years of missing earth history. But is there really any "missing" time? Along this interface great boulders of Shinumo Quartite are buried exactly as if they were transported into place by energetic flood waters. The expected consequence of an extensive and energetic flood would be the rapid erosion of massive amounts of sediment and the redeposit of these sediments at other locations. Rocks and boulders would drop to the bottom of these flood waters and come to rest at the top of scoured surfaces. This is what we find between the Tapeats sandstone/Dox sandstone border in the Grand Canyon. Evolutionists assume there is a "missing" 500 million years at this border. Creationists see the evidence as a conformation of a worldwide flood with no "missing" time.

Creation geologists have only been working to explain the massive sedimentary rock layers of our planet by a worldwide flood for a few decades and there is still much to be explained. However, the creation model explains many problems which the uniformitarian model does not despite 150 years of study from an evolutionary perspective.

The truth can only be found if all of the evidence is examined. Does our current scientific and education establishment allow for this freedom of investigation?
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2009, 10:17:56 PM »
Its an ego thing.

How come you guys get to "assume" when nobody else does? Real investigators follow the evidence -- they do not screw the evidence around to fit their theories. Experts in the field of paleontology are just as astute as experts in any other field, they can recognize which bones are which. And when there is doubt, they can check DNA.



Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2009, 10:19:17 PM »
 :bigsign:

Offline mark

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2009, 08:18:10 AM »
 The flood is what caused the fossils we find all over the earth. Its the ONLY logical answer!
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Offline kari

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2009, 09:19:48 AM »
The flood is what caused the fossils we find all over the earth. Its the ONLY logical answer!
It's the only logical answer for those that must accept Biblical stories as historical fact, otherwise, they must accept that the Bible is not an accurate historical record, but rather a book with fictional stories in it.
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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2009, 11:44:59 AM »
Species do change, and you can observe this for yourself. Tonight, go to any bar, and watch the people. They will enter as normal human beings, and before they leave, they will have evolved into complete idiots, some will actually evolve into large butts.
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Offline kari

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2009, 12:00:42 PM »
 :th_ththSmileysWorship: Lord Geezer Taz, you are all knowing and so wise!!!!!   :th_ththSmileysWorship:
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 12:02:55 PM by kari »
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Offline fish

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2009, 10:35:15 PM »
ya can't change dna

Offline shadylane

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 01:31:50 AM »
Species do change, and you can observe this for yourself. Tonight, go to any bar, and watch the people. They will enter as normal human beings, and before they leave, they will have evolved into complete idiots, some will actually evolve into large butts.

Actually its a chemical reaction that causes the effect you have observed. Its called "instant asshole, just add alcohol".
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline shadylane

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 01:35:51 AM »
ya can't change dna

This statement isn't true. DNA can be changed, but 99.99% of the time it to the detriment of the organism.
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline fish

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 09:35:25 PM »
  mutations in dna cause birth defects. but dna cannot be changed in a living being

Offline mark

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2009, 06:37:09 PM »
 I just met a beautiful girl who changed into a completely different person in one week. yes species change.
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Offline merrywhiterose

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2009, 03:15:57 AM »
Yes, it's possible through thousands of years of evolution for a species to change. Chromosome 2 is the key: http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm.

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2009, 07:10:36 AM »
 Similar chromosomes mean we had a common CREATOR!
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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2009, 10:35:36 AM »
WTF??? NO! You can cross-bread species to get a new species. Haven't you ever seen a cross of a zebra and a horse? Does your "creator" also create all the deformed babies and animals that are born every day? Or is it his "oops, my bad!"?

Offline mark

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2009, 02:42:17 PM »
 A zebra and a horse are of the same kind! I feel like I'm arguing with an uneducated child!
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
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Offline fish

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2009, 03:04:23 PM »
ya can't cross a goat with a sheep. why?

ya can't change dna. ad chemicals that are lacking(chemical imbalance).

we all evolve(another word for change) as we age. living and non living things evolve.

Offline merrywhiterose

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2009, 04:27:38 PM »
Oh brother! Obviously people on here have not even studied basic biology and evolution. Yeah, just believe your religious leaders. It so much easier than thinking for you.  :lordRick:

Offline okie the thread killer

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Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2009, 04:51:22 PM »
Ya, know, to both sides of this argement, we all believe what we choose to belive, bottom line...whether it be religion, politics or the best place to shop....so why try to convince the people who disagree with your opinion...And I am addressing both sides here....I am pretty agnotistic, but not athiest
I have it on good authority that the Hokey-Pokey really IS what it's all about.

The Free Voice of Pulaski County Missouri

Re: DO SPECIES CHANGE?
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2009, 04:51:22 PM »

 

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